The Punch Drunk Interview: Tom McCarthy and Alex Shaffer from 'Win Win'

Tom McCarthy never gives us a chance to forget that he's more than just a great writer and director. He's spent years as memorable supporting player in a number of films and TV series. He played probably the most despised character in HBO's The Wire, and had a hilarious spot opposite Julia Roberts and Clive Owen in Duplicity. Part of the reason why his first two directorial efforts, The Station Agent and The Visitor,(he also co-wrote Pixar's Up) were so successful is that he is the consummate actor's director, pulling remarkable performances out of the least likely of places. His new film, Win Win, a heart warming comedy with hints of sports drama and coming-of-age sensibility, is no different. Working with the always perfect Paul Giamatti, McCarthy also had a chance to work his magic on newcomer, Alex Shaffer.  I had a chance to spend about 30 minutes with Tom and Alex to talk about the making of the film, Alex's future as an actor, and Tom's upcoming projects.   

This being your first time in front of the camera, Alex, I thought your performance was completely authentic and real. Did that come to you naturally? Or as a result of Tom's direction?

Alex:  Yeah, he would definitely help a lot with that and I think I had a lot to do with it as well; it was more of a combination than anything. There were times that he’d say play it softer, play it quieter, less stonerish…that was his favorite actually. Probably every scene we did would say “A little less stonerish”

And you were talking about delivery, or how open his eyes were, or what?

Tom: Every time I’d be like, “Hey Alex” and he’d say “I know, a little less stoner mcstonerton”

So how did you two get together on this film?

A: Well actually Tom put a cattle call in the newspaper for all high school wrestlers to audition for this role, so my friend Taxamy said “You should go and audition for this” and I said “No” and he said “No, seriously you should go” so it was a once in a lifetime opportunity and I came and auditioned for it, and I came in 7 or 8 more times, and then I finally got the role.

So you were an actually HS wrestler too? One of the things I noticed was that your moves were very authentic.

A: Yeah, I was a HS wrestler

How was your record in High school as compared to your character?

T: He was a state champion as a sophomore

A: Yeah, I was actually 33-0…weirdly enough I did have a much better record than Kyle did even though Kyle is pretty good.

 How did your relationship with your coach when you were state championship compare with your relationship with Tom (McCarthy) during filming?

A: You know what, I have a much better relationship with Tom (Laughter), that’s not even being sarcastic. I’m close with my coaches, but just not as close. I feel like I’ve spent more personal time with Tom than I’ve ever spent with my coaches.

So now that you’ve had kind of a taste of acting, are you going to stick with it? Are you going to keep doing it?

A: Yeah, I actually recently got a manager and an agent so I’ve been auditioning around and feeling everything out. So yeah, I’m gonna start acting.

Agent? You’re fully into it?

A: Yeah, man

Tom, I wanted to ask you, you’ve done, obviously, The Visitor and Station Agent, they’re all filled with such well rounded characters. What is your scripting process like? How do you come up with the ideas for some of these stories?

T: You know it varies from film to film, but inevitably it starts with a character or two. I’m usually, I’d say, very characterized as opposed to plot driven or genre driven writer and director, obviously. But certainly it starts with a character and a theme that I think is interesting and I think with this, earlier on I had this idea of a younger, talented wrestler and then sort of found Mike Flaherty. Oddly enough, Joe, who I developed the story with, is a childhood friend, we used to wrestle together at New Providence High School. He is also an elder law attorney who lives in New Providence who is married with 2 little girls and so I think I was cherry picking a bit from his life we were kind of trading on and off and just talking about it was sort of like talking to the beginning of a character and then out of that we spun off and came up with this character Mike Flaherty. I think it always starts off with that and then trying to build a world out from there. With this film I was trying to expand about from what I’ve done in the past. I was trying to deal with a few more story lines. I was trying to deal with a movie that really operates in a number of ways, a bit of a family drama, a bit of a buddy flick, a bit of a sports genre. I was trying to marry these different threads in a way that felt totally consistent, which is always the biggest challenge in film making. I think it is finding that tone that an audience feels in good hands.

Would you say that tone, well to me that tone was optimism. Even the title makes you feel good, right? But I felt like, even to quote good characters, you show that they have faults, that they have dark sides and even to quote bad characters, like Kyle’s mom, you can’t totally hate her as a human being, she’s a screwed up person. So everybody in there has something with which you can empathize.

T: Yeah, good and bad. I think there’s a time when Jackie, Mike’s wife, is being obstinant or judgmental and closed minded and I think they all have those moments and I think that I most thriving for. I think that casting Melanie Lynskey in that role of Cindy, Kyle’s mom, I was going for something like, I didn’t want what you’d expected. I think walking through that door there are certain actresses you might have expected, I don’t want to name who they are, but just the look, the style, I didn’t want to go there. I wanted someone to come in and go “Oh she’s kind of cute, wow what happened?” And what happened was she had a tough road. She didn’t have good parents, she got off track and had a kid way too young and wasn’t ready to deal and obviously had some problem with drug addiction. You asked about the idea for these characters, it’s really being relentless and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and finding dimension and challenging anything that feels like where I’ve got lazy in developing the character because as a writer you do that. You gotta follow your guts. You think that’s wasn’t a really good idea. It was a comfortable idea at the time and yet we move one and sometimes you gotta do that. You need to push through a draft. So you’re like, “I’ll come back to her or I’ll come back to him. I get the idea. I’ll come back to him.” We did that with Terry, Bobby’s character. When I was going back through I started to layer in language that was very financial driven so he was constantly using these terms that become a joke at the end when he’s talking to Mike about “opening your kimono” and “making your Ethra trade.” It was like “What the f&@k are you talking about? I have no idea what you’re talking about?” And I have a brother who does that, who’s been in the financial _____(around 8:15). We’ll be having these very intimate personal conversations and he’ll be breaking it down in this sort of corporate vernacular which cracks me up. I’d be like, “what does that mean?” And so I’ll go back and handle that sometimes on the second, third, forth, tenth pass of the script.

Do you continue writing after you’ve cast it because I’d imagine maybe an actor can form how you approach a character.

T: Absolutely. I mean many times by the time I finish a solid draft I have a really solid sense of who might be playing that role. But for people like Alex where I gotta go find that character and he has a very specific personality I’ll tailor it. Probably not that much. I think we probably found little things here and there like in rehearsal, I said, “Use their first name. Call her Jackie. Call him Mike.” As soon as he [Alex] said it we all laughed which was something being like “Goodnight Jackie.” My editor could never watch that scene without laughing. It was just something about it. I don’t know what that is. Just having a younger person use an adult’s name like that and making that decision and not doing it with any sense of disrespect but just, that’s how they see them. But yeah, I do do that a little bit. I use rehearsal for that a lot. My rehearsals aren’t so much about getting the scene right and just preparing the actor. It’s about preparing a company for shooting and sometimes a lot of that is me tailoring the writing and script to what I’m hearing, getting feedback from the actors – like, “this feels like more than I have to say,” and good actors just know that.

Did you ever say that to Tom, Alex?

A: Yeah, that’s a good question. Was there anything you…

T: You know what he would do? He would be stumbling over the lines sometimes and he’d be like, “listen, I’m having trouble with this,” and that’s usually a good indication that maybe the writing was a bit jagged or wasn’t right for the character.

A: And a lot of time I would do things where I would speed through lines. I would think about it too quick and I would say it too quick. 

T: Which everyone does, to be fair.

If the studio says, Tom, we’re going to give you $50 million to make your next movie…

T: WOHOO! PARTY!

Would you start cooking up special effects or let’s do other stuff or would you say, no thanks, I want to tell this story in a small way and that would just screw me up if I took too much money to make it.

T: I did have offers over the last five years to do big movies with big old fat companies and big fat studios and cool stuff and you do think about it, “Oh that would be cool.” But I think just didn’t have a real connection with the material and at the time I was probably very determined to make Win Win and I’ve only made 3 movies. It’s not a lot. I mean, it’s more than your average Joe off the street but for film makers who do quality work it’s nothing. And I think I’m still learning and so creating material, writing material, being inside the material is incredibly helpful to me in that way because I feel I at least know that I can connect with this emotionally understand it inside and out. I’m gonna make mistakes. Everyone does. It just doesn’t always work out the way you want it. It’s a difficult job but I’m inside in it and that’s gonna help out a lot. But I feel like now I sort of understand the process of 3 films, you get a sense knowing what you’re in from beginning to end. And that’s definitely a part of it.

Can we talk about Paul Giamatti for a second? I’d love to know how your relationship with him might have evolved off camera. Obviously, he’s a guy who, I imagine he can do this in his sleep although he probably works really hard and did any good mojo rub off of him onto you as an actor?

A: Well yeah, I would hope some def did but he was just fantastic and when he wasn’t doing the scene and if it was an important scene, you would see him walking around just saying the lines in his head. He kind of looked somewhat insane but at the same time you could obviously tell that he was very focused and just a very great actor. I really respected him. Me and him are good buds, I would say. I really like Paul. He’s a really cool guy.

T: It’s funny, I’ve heard a lot, I mean it’s Paul, who’s always great but it’s tough to always be good and he takes it very very seriously and he works very hard and no stone unturned. He’s a perfectionist. He’s an amazing actor and he definitely just lets it ride. He’s not a guy who’s in his head all the time. He’s incredibly focused when he’s on set and what was wonderful for me to experience, knowing Paul for a long time, we’re old friends, is what a kind of quiet leader he is on set. He has an excellent attitude and you can feel that on set and you need to feel that because it’s long hard work and the crew has a respect for him; and when you have the respect of your crew, you’re just gonna make a better movie. These guys work a lot, they work hard, they work long hours and they’re kind of connected to the film in the right way. It just makes the project not only more enjoyable but better ultimately. Paul was a big part of that. People like him. He likes being there, he loves his job, he takes is seriously and he’s damn good at it. It’s hard not to like being around that. It’s infectious.

You mentioned Bobby Cannavale earlier. You guys seem to have a pretty good working relationship, seems like you really bring out the best in him. What is it that you like in particular?

T: I just get a kick out of him. He’s a funny dude. I know him very well. He’s really a very dear friend of mine. We met probably 15 years ago doing a play together and been hanging around ever since. We share a similar sense of humor, a similar sensibility and I get him. It’s easy for me to direct him and he’s direct-able. He doesn’t have any go about it. He listens, even when it’s tough.  And I think he’s very good, even with the pressure and he’s very good to taking direction. I think that any good actor, really any good actor, likes direction. They like that third eye. There has to be trust there and there has to be a relationship and a connection with the director. I know that’s what I like as an actor because you’re not watching yourself. You’re not moderating your performance.  You’re just kind of feeling and being in the moment. You’re trusting someone outside to help guide you a little bit. It can be a very freeing feeling and if you get way off track, the director can let you know. With Paul it was a lot, you’re never gonna get a false moment out of him. It was just keeping him on character at times because his character is much more buttoned down than a lot of his other characters and much more straight forward. He had to be. He’s a small town lawyer. He couldn’t afford to be dynamic in any way. He had to be the kind of guy that people, especially older people, felt comfortable with and connected with, relied on, trusted, which is sort of the tragedy of the film in many ways.

Did you start buttering Paul up for this while shooting Duplicity?

T: No, we literally, I remember, I sat down with Paul after American Splendor and we had a chat about that movie and his performance in it and there a couple of moments that I just loved. The other kind of surreal moment where there were just afters, where Harvey was in film and they were just hanging out, I said, “that’s the guy I want in my movie” and he’s like “that’s me”. I loved that movie and loved him in it and just time and both working a lot it just never happened. When I finished this, I sent it to him and he was coming back from Europe. He said he’d read it on the plane. We sat down at Thanksgiving and just had a chat about it on his couch.

With these relatively small budget movies do you feel that you have more freedom as a director but also that the actors have less pressure that they’re more in their element?

T: I don’t think there’s less pressure for any of us because we take ourselves very seriously. For a movie like this to get out there and be successful on any level it’s sort of like a small sports team. We have to play a perfect game. Everything has to work because with big movies and big stars you have huge budgets and you have access and you’ll be out there no matter what because if they spend $60 million on a movie, guess what? They’re going to spend another $20-$30 million on advertising it just to protect their investment. That’s not gonna happen on a $5-$10 million budget. It’s just gonna disappear. Budget has nothing do with value as we know or quality as we know. We take our job seriously and I think you did hit on something in the first part of that statement. Which is keeping my budget down it’s another element to what we were talking about before, it allows me that autonomy. Searchlight left me alone, gave me my money, asked me what I was doing and said go make your movie. Yeah, they’d chime in with notes and some of them were sillier than others but they really allowed us to make our movie and they trusted me with that. Yeah if it was a 30, 60 million dollar movie would there be more people around, sure. I just, ugh, it’s just so difficult to make a good movie, and it’s hard when your constantly defending yourself, you don’t have all the answers, it’s a process, your discovering that. So it can really muddy the waters when your spending your energy defending choices that your still processing and exploring right through the edit process.

Was it different making the movie with Giamatti, not because of who he is, but because he’s different than say Jenkins and Peter Dinklage, in the sense that they’re career supporting guys and he’s more of a well-known lead.

T: No, No, you look at Paul’s first 20 credits and as we joked about we’ll see him in movies like “That’s the guy I played” and he’s always like “We found him”. We all have our roles in like ten movies where we only got like three lines. You know Paul put in his time for a long time and then had some success because he’s so damn good that he broke through in a couple of roles, you know American Splendor was great and Sideways. But then he goes back in the character mode, then back to the lead again. He’s had a very unique career but he’s maintained that everyman quality. It’s an intangible that as a director you say, I can do something with that, I can hear that voice. Some actors you just connect with more than others.

There’s this thing that runs through your movies that I’ve always wondered if you did intentionally. There’s this recurring theme of lonely characters finding family wherever they can. Is this something you do intentionally or is just something that happens?

T: It’s something that if accused of I’d have to cop to. I do like that idea, and maybe it’s because in my life I’ve moved around so much. I mean I have a great family, it’s not like I come from a broken home or anything like that. Just as an adult I’m constantly redefining my social circles, some of that is jobs’, moving around a lot and some of that is just me whether it be age, certain friends peel off, and go their own ways. So there’s something about that I find very interesting in the way it influences you. Suddenly I have this new group of friends and this new family that I didn’t have five years ago. I also just like the randomness of how people come into your lives. Like this guy (points to Alex), totally random really. If you think about it, we were just laughing about that, we’re spending a lot of time together just traveling around together and, you know.

Before you go I gotta ask you a question man, Million Dollar Arm?

T: Why, you know that story?

Yeah man, it’s a great story. Any chance of you directing that?

T: I don’t know yet, I told them I couldn’t commit to directing it just because I never do before I finish (the current project). But it’s a cool story I’m having fun in writing with it right now.

Yeah, I’m really looking forward to that one, it’s right up your alley, it’s perfect

T: That’s definitely one where there would be a bigger budget you’d have to be able to really have control over it. 

 Thanks for your time, guys. I really appreciate it. 

Win Win is now open in select theaters nationwide. Please check out my review here.